Is this an anarchy or a dictatorship?

[Raj]

Wondering why this thread (viewtopic.php?t=87722) was archived. Is this a new standard practice for the staff? If we are not going to moderate out of game, as per the owner's wishes, we should also respect their wishes of not moderating general discussion besides flaming. Feedback from the community should certainly not be archived because we don't like it.

Thread contents for those without the gravedigger role:

Spoiler: show

Out-of-game Moderation (cont.)
Post by Raj » Sun Jun 30, 2024 8:28 pm

Jayden, your comment on my last post is pure self-serving bias. It is you now and it was me then. If you’d have me banned first, you are making my case for me that actually my bans were completely fair. Unfortunately I am just one guy and not a small faction of a clan, so when you go to do it, you won’t set off any alarms with (ex) staff managers subservient to that clan, so you won’t be demoted by a staff manager who resigned 6 months ago and didn’t even ask you what the bans were for. You wouldn’t have to deal with that staff manager choosing to just taking the ridiculous stance that people were being banned for the phrase “hey bestie” (how someone could even assume this and not stop to ask “am I an idiot?” is beyond ridiculous), or them getting completely hostile and unhinged because I was supposed to be a mind reader and speak up when it was him last time or else I’d be barred from raising the same issue, alongside a number of other ridiculous and fallacious arguments. I am not 4 people and I’m not willing to exploit the biases of my friends, so you’d have to deal with none of that.

And for anyone reading along, we’re talking about Discord bans. In case you’re wondering how absurd this is.

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Re: Out-of-game Moderation (cont.)
Post by Iron adam » Sun Jun 30, 2024 8:39 pm

post before locked

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Re: Out-of-game Moderation (cont.)
Post by Raj » Sun Jun 30, 2024 8:41 pm

We can keep going, don’t see why posts in general discussion being actively used for discussion are being locked, besides a staff member finally getting a little unhinged after seeing what I was dealing with. I can make another one if we need to continue our discussion in general discussion.

[Patel]

Didn't know it was archived, but here's my post from it as well

The reason we used to lock threads like these was because the forums were an active place and we didn't want to saturate people's digests with private arguments. We were also coming off of the forum-era of the internet, where people generally treated online boards with a bit of respect and a novel place for discussion. As the ability to post online has become ubiquitous among the population, most people no longer treat the internet like a privilege and the culture surrounding discussion online has changed entirely. I don't think Raj calling out the people who are trying to make him leave the game is a bad thing or inappropriate at this point. It's not like it's detracting attention from anything else anyways.

The issue with Raj and the many folks who blatantly dislike him and want him gone is unresolved - yes, they are being toxic to him, no, it's not really banter. Banter is fun and keeps you coming back for more. You want Raj to leave PkHonor, you'll bully him every way you can to get there. You understand that the dumb and simple rules on here just require that you don't say certain words, and you know that you can psychologically torture someone without ever using a slur. This is human interaction 101. Peace is a choice that you have decided not to make (as in, both camps), and now one that Raj has also decided not to make. The ability to resolve your differences is there, but whether or not you guys choose to do it is up to you.

I purposefully tagged no one because you'll feel like it's directed at you if you're involved. There's also a lot of you and I'm lazy.

This situation is full of individuals (on both sides) who would rather stubbornly cling to their dislike for one another than sit down and talk through their differences. I'm not sure why - maybe y'all just never had a chance to open up and talk about your feelings, maybe you don't know how. But the thing that's actually difficult is taking some time to talk to and understand one another. Pointing fingers, calling each other crude things, and banding together to drive people out - it's easy. That's why even kids do it in pre-school. It takes little thought. You follow some basic rules to not get caught. Then you get your way.

The issue of not having any moderation outside of the game server is one that is long overdue for a serious discussion and overhaul as well. It only got to this point because the ability to act was restricted by strict rules from Owner(s), and we neutered our own staff team over time like a pet dog. I fought it at various points, Ryan fought it at various points, the community fought it, countless staff members fought it - but we were always told 'well we can't lose players'. Or that 'it wasn't worth the risk of getting someone innocent'. Now that we don't really have players left to lose, it's time to talk principles and decide whether or not the community is a zero-sum-game. Is it? If so, then no point in discussion, things are going exactly as intended.

If not, then what kind of community do we want to build?

Also - Pkhonor has always been a dictatorship for the most part, just one that respects democratic principles as much as possible. It's an interesting sandbox for political ideologies because we have a small community with a lot of beings of 'absolute power' and near-omniscience. The amount of information you can work with is impressive and you dip in and out of benevolent dictatorships

[Raj]

Also - Pkhonor has always been a dictatorship for the most part, just one that respects democratic principles as much as possible. It's an interesting sandbox for political ideologies because we have a small community with a lot of beings of 'absolute power' and near-omniscience. The amount of information you can work with is impressive and you dip in and out of benevolent dictatorships

I understand, but functionally, the result of that dictatorship in recent history has been more or less anarchy out-of-game. Which is fine, but we should be consistent, in that I don't understand why any of this is being locked or archived, if we're not moderating out-of-game, or why Jayden should be biased against me, if staff are meant to just tolerate people being pests out-of-game. But there is a dictatorship behind it, which is why I am somewhat hopeful that progress is vaguely possible.

The solution to the issue I'm having under anarchy is to stoop to the level of the people causing me issues, which I am perfectly comfortable doing, but that doesn't mean I can't ask for a better world, or that we should expect that from our developers.

[Patel]

Also - Pkhonor has always been a dictatorship for the most part, just one that respects democratic principles as much as possible. It's an interesting sandbox for political ideologies because we have a small community with a lot of beings of 'absolute power' and near-omniscience. The amount of information you can work with is impressive and you dip in and out of benevolent dictatorships

I understand, but functionally, the result of that dictatorship in recent history has been more or less anarchy out-of-game. Which is fine, but we should be consistent, in that I don't understand why any of this is being locked or archived, if we're not moderating out-of-game, or why Jayden should be biased against me, if staff are meant to just tolerate people being pests out-of-game. But there is a dictatorship behind it, which is why I am somewhat hopeful that progress is vaguely possible.

The solution to the issue I'm having under anarchy is to stoop to the level of the people causing me issues, which I am perfectly comfortable doing, but that doesn't mean I can't ask for a better world, or that we should expect that from our developers.

I always maintain that taking the high road is the best way to go, but it comes at personal (emotional) cost at times. The major loss of stooping to their level is that you forfeit a veil of ambiguity (to others) that allows you to portray yourself as a victim. It just adds to the noise, but makes noise it does. People who don't know you or who know the people you're beefing with are less likely to side with you now that they've seen you're just as capable of acting that way. They don't know what's in your head or what the timeline of events is in detail. The information is spread across ingame, discord (public and private) and forum interactions, which even I (having access to most of those) can barely put together.

I think it's supremely important to not care about what others think, as doing so prevents us from acting authentically. But it's very important to be aware of what others think and what shapes their perceptions, as it allows us to act strategically and favorably.

[Raj]

I think it's supremely important to not care about what others think, as doing so prevents us from acting authentically. But it's very important to be aware of what others think and what shapes their perceptions, as it allows us to act strategically and favorably.

I just don't care about the opinions of people who have convinced themselves they have a complete story when they obviously don't. If members of the staff team are unable to identify when they have incomplete information, but act as if they do and without being challenged by anyone else on the team, then that team is fucked beyond repair. That may or may not include ownership, if it applies to them. I cannot imagine ownership taking an informed stance on anything community related with their activity ngl.

[Monys]

In general, with everything in this post and the others. Stinks beyond belief with it all. Not taking sides at all but whatever is happening or has happened just stinks.

[Uim elon]

I just want to point out that you are guilty of doing the same things that are being done against you. Here are a few example of you prematurely locking and archiving threads you didn’t agree with before they reached a resolution.

Spoiler: show

viewtopic.php?t=87561
viewtopic.php?t=86781
viewtopic.php?t=86596

With that being said, I thought it was wrong when you did it to me, so I also think it is wrong if someone does it to you.

As long as YOU keep the discussion productive and professional, I think it’s a valid thread and anyone who tries to flame and crash the threads should be removed.

[Lykos]

I just want to point out that you are guilty of doing the same things that are being done against you. Here are a few example of you prematurely locking and archiving threads you didn’t agree with before they reached a resolution.

Those threads are completely different scenarios that do not apply to this situation. I'm sorry you felt like they were prematurely L&A'd. 2 of them even explained why it needed to be L&A'd with valid reasons. One clearly denoted not to be an intended feature by a developer, the other seems to clearly state the before & after situation for collection logs. As for the other thread, no one replied in over a month.

These are not threads that need to remain up to garner discussion let alone would there have been any conversation in the first place. In other words, it needed to be filtered so the forums can remain organized. Completely different from a 11 page thread discussing critical issues in the community.

Why even post this?

[Uim elon]

……

I don’t want to flood this topic trying to explain to you the importance of not locking forums topics we don’t care about or don’t agree with.

But feel free to shoot me a message if you genuinely don’t see any similarities. We can have the conversation there. I’m always here to help

[Patel]

I think it's important to get these thoughts out, otherwise people just simmer and grudges manifest in other ways down the road.

We shouldn't be afraid of looking bad/weak in front of the eyes of the 'community', and should welcome criticism. It is an opportunity to do better or resolve issues. At the very least, an opportunity to understand each other even if we may disagree.

Silence and obedience should be the most frightening thing of all