ironman and voting

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Rapsey
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Re: ironman and voting

Post by Rapsey » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:40 pm

Then I'll repeat what I said the last time this came up. Irons voting for cosmetics? Fine with me. IMO the entire vote store should've been 100% cosmetic all along for all players. Problem solved, no more need to have one way for regular players and another way for irons. I would've already thrown out everything else if I didn't think it would set off another round of rants.

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Re: ironman and voting

Post by Explozionz » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:05 pm

Adamthalion wrote:
Skiller wrote:The value of an apron or wooden only exists because there’s no way to get them anymore. Letting any type of player earn them again will immediately impact their price since more are then available in game, even if it’s limited to a specific type of account.
Not to mention the issue with ::prices and alch value. These items would add wealth to an ironman account.
If you read through the post properly, I did state that a different item number could be used and a set price could be set to that item which would provide nothing in wealth. I know this is possible because last time I spoke to Jonas he informed me of having a one of a kind party hat that was under the wrong item id.
Rapsey wrote:Then I'll repeat what I said the last time this came up. Irons voting for cosmetics? Fine with me. IMO the entire vote store should've been 100% cosmetic all along for all players. Problem solved, no more need to have one way for regular players and another way for irons. I would've already thrown out everything else if I didn't think it would set off another round of rants.
When you look at it there is cosmetic items already like colour dark bows, afro etc. But I kind of have to agree. Adding one set of item only available to iron men players does defeat the object of having a regular account because it split them aside and you get rants like "Why can't we have those items" and "Oh, I always wanted that item but I don't want to grind so many hours to obtain it". I see where you are coming from. But I can also see the point of others that the server is losing votes with people that may not have a main account and only an iron man account.

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Slap a ho
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Re: ironman and voting

Post by Slap a ho » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:55 pm

If you’re only voting because you want to obtain something from it, you’re voting for the wrong reason lol. Vote because you enjoy the server and want to continue to see it grow, not because there’s an incentive to vote.
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Re: ironman and voting

Post by Rapsey » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:02 am

Iron pvm man wrote:I see where you are coming from. But I can also see the point of others that the server is losing votes with people that may not have a main account and only an iron man account.
Naturally this is also very important to us. We don't want to miss out getting more players over a matter of principle. Fortunately we have a ton of data at our disposal. We know exactly who votes and who doesn't so we can make a pretty good estimate of how many votes we are missing out on by not giving irons vote rewards. Sadly it wouldn't have any meaningful impact, a few more votes yes but we'd still be on the same toplist ranks we are on now. We're actually keeping track of our toplist ranks and the number of votes we're getting 24/7. Believe me, if we thought for one second an easy change like this would make a difference we would be the first to jump at it.

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Re: ironman and voting

Post by Fungamer » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:39 am

Rapsey wrote:
Iron pvm man wrote:I see where you are coming from. But I can also see the point of others that the server is losing votes with people that may not have a main account and only an iron man account.
Naturally this is also very important to us. We don't want to miss out getting more players over a matter of principle. Fortunately we have a ton of data at our disposal. We know exactly who votes and who doesn't so we can make a pretty good estimate of how many votes we are missing out on by not giving irons vote rewards. Sadly it wouldn't have any meaningful impact, a few more votes yes but we'd still be on the same toplist ranks we are on now. We're actually keeping track of our toplist ranks and the number of votes we're getting 24/7. Believe me, if we thought for one second an easy change like this would make a difference we would be the first to jump at it.
What if you changed the numbers and had 30-70% of active ironman accounts voting too? Wouldn't that make a difference? No offence but I find it quite odd that you base an estimation on all those who do vote, and those who don't to predict whether or not they'll vote for a new item :P

There's still potential votes to be gained. I hope at least a fair part of the ironman community would want to get these cosmetic items in the long run and vote for them daily since its just such a small task.

Eh, even if it was minimal, every vote counts. Better to have 10 votes coming in daily for a long time than having 100 votes once a year, since the active votes would've "helped" the server more, right?
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Re: ironman and voting

Post by Rapsey » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:24 am

Fungamer wrote:What if you changed the numbers and had 30-70% of active ironman accounts voting too? Wouldn't that make a difference? No offence but I find it quite odd that you base an estimation on all those who do vote, and those who don't to predict whether or not they'll vote for a new item :P
Changed the numbers? One does not simply change the numbers.

And what would you base such an estimate on then, the gravitational pull of the moon? :roll: Knowing who votes and who doesn't + what account types they play on is exactly what you need to find out how much untapped iron man voting potential there is. You just ask yourself: if we could get these people to vote as well (regardless of how you incite them), how many votes would we be getting then and how would it affect our placement? Not exactly rocket science...

EDIT: The most basic analysis looks something like this:

Let's say we get 1K unique IP's a day from our players, and we're getting 700 votes a day on a toplist that lets you vote every 24h. So 700 are voting, 300 are not. The question here is: how much of an impact does it have that irons can't get vote rewards?

So you look at the distribution of account types these people play on. How many of those 700 voters play a) only regular accounts, b) only iron man, c) both regular and iron man? How is that distribution for the 300 people that do not vote? Is there really a trend that (exclusive) iron man players vote less? (yes there is, slightly) Okay, so then what would the numbers look like if the iron man voting participation was the same as everyone else?

You're kinda mixing things up there: we're not trying to predict whether they will vote for a new item. We're trying to gauge the difference between irons and non-irons in voting behaviour. We obviously also try to estimate if we could get more people to vote by adding new items but this is completely unrelated to the question being discussed here. This is about whether it would make a difference if irons could vote.

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Slap a ho
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Re: ironman and voting

Post by Slap a ho » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:22 am

To add, you can’t expect players that never used to vote to continue to vote after they’ve received the item they were voting for. Getting people to vote based on a new item in the shop only works temporarily. It’s not a permanent fix to the problem: people not voting that can. So if you see an influx from 700 players to 900 players voting, it is highly likely it will only be temporary until those 200 players received enough vote points to buy whatever they’re voting for & they discontinue voting again.

It’s a never ending cycle & the only way to keep people voting through incentives is to keep the shop refreshed with new content every few months. That becomes tedious in itself. Don’t votes reset on the top lists every month anyways?
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Re: ironman and voting

Post by Rapsey » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:06 am

Slap a ho wrote:To add, you can’t expect players that never used to vote to continue to vote after they’ve received the item they were voting for. Getting people to vote based on a new item in the shop only works temporarily. It’s not a permanent fix to the problem: people not voting that can. So if you see an influx from 700 players to 900 players voting, it is highly likely it will only be temporary until those 200 players received enough vote points to buy whatever they’re voting for & they discontinue voting again.

It’s a never ending cycle & the only way to keep people voting through incentives is to keep the shop refreshed with new content every few months. That becomes tedious in itself.
True, this is the main drawback I see with cosmetic-only voting. It's the very reason we added coins and credits in the vote store, so that there would be a point in continuing to vote after having obtained all the cosmetics.

One way you could "solve" that is by making the cosmetics tradeable so regular players can buy more of them and sell them to other players instead of just buying coins with vote points. Unfortunately that has its own drawback: a large portion of the regular players would then buy the items instead of having to vote for weeks or months, so you'd end up with less people voting than before.
Slap a ho wrote:Don’t votes reset on the top lists every month anyways?
Yes they do, or even more often. RL sometimes does a thing where they reset all the servers with >1K votes halfway through the month so the smaller servers can have a moment at the top. Not a very good system though.

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Re: ironman and voting

Post by Fungamer » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:53 pm

Rapsey wrote:
Fungamer wrote:What if you changed the numbers and had 30-70% of active ironman accounts voting too? Wouldn't that make a difference? No offence but I find it quite odd that you base an estimation on all those who do vote, and those who don't to predict whether or not they'll vote for a new item :P
Changed the numbers? One does not simply change the numbers.

And what would you base such an estimate on then, the gravitational pull of the moon? :roll: Knowing who votes and who doesn't + what account types they play on is exactly what you need to find out how much untapped iron man voting potential there is. You just ask yourself: if we could get these people to vote as well (regardless of how you incite them), how many votes would we be getting then and how would it affect our placement? Not exactly rocket science...

EDIT: The most basic analysis looks something like this:

Let's say we get 1K unique IP's a day from our players, and we're getting 700 votes a day on a toplist that lets you vote every 24h. So 700 are voting, 300 are not. The question here is: how much of an impact does it have that irons can't get vote rewards?

So you look at the distribution of account types these people play on. How many of those 700 voters play a) only regular accounts, b) only iron man, c) both regular and iron man? How is that distribution for the 300 people that do not vote? Is there really a trend that (exclusive) iron man players vote less? (yes there is, slightly) Okay, so then what would the numbers look like if the iron man voting participation was the same as everyone else?

You're kinda mixing things up there: we're not trying to predict whether they will vote for a new item. We're trying to gauge the difference between irons and non-irons in voting behaviour. We obviously also try to estimate if we could get more people to vote by adding new items but this is completely unrelated to the question being discussed here. This is about whether it would make a difference if irons could vote.
My apologies, I should've made myself more clear.

With changing the numbers I meant something different. I was talking about seeing how many ironman accounts that are active, and taking a very rough estimate of who would vote. I'd say this number would be around 50%, give or take a few percent. Of course here the issue lies that I don't know how many ironmen there are compared to regular players, so correct me if I'm wrong:

1000 Players
750 regular players, 250 ironmen. 500 regular players vote daily. If you could just get half of those ironmen to vote, you'd have 62.5% of your entire community voting daily compared to only 50%. To me that seems like a pretty nice increase.

But yeah, you already mentioned that you already made such an analysis, and that it wouldn't really be worth it in terms of getting extra votes. It's a shame it wouldn't, since initially I thought that not being able to vote as an ironman was something pretty big. I do still think that you should give more attention to the gravitational pull of the moon-point you brought up though, since that may be an important factor into making people vote :lol:


Slap a ho wrote:To add, you can’t expect players that never used to vote to continue to vote after they’ve received the item they were voting for. Getting people to vote based on a new item in the shop only works temporarily. It’s not a permanent fix to the problem: people not voting that can. So if you see an influx from 700 players to 900 players voting, it is highly likely it will only be temporary until those 200 players received enough vote points to buy whatever they’re voting for & they discontinue voting again.

It’s a never ending cycle & the only way to keep people voting through incentives is to keep the shop refreshed with new content every few months. That becomes tedious in itself. Don’t votes reset on the top lists every month anyways?
Indeed, people wont vote anymore after getting the item they were initially voting for, but that's more of a balancing issue IMO. How much the item should cost ( = how long it should take to get the item by yourself, if you wouldn't be buying votes) is going to play an important role in this matter. Best case scenario would be that you can gain the item in a timespan which isn't too long, but enough for the developers to add a new item. I don't think finding items etc would be tedious for the first few years either btw. There's probably dozens of suggestions for new items to the vote store, and if the idea was considered I'm sure the GQC could come up with more than enough cosmetics that work.

I feel like there's plenty of ways to be creative with it and get people to still vote daily even if you ha. I mean, you could even add a reward at the end of voting for 10, 25, 50, 100, ... days total, or even add rewards for consecutive voting. A forums title, a small pet who follows you and when talked to tells people how much you've voted or what your biggest vote "streak" was, just a few more pets (or even NPCs who follow you) in general. The possibilities are nearly endless on this aspect, so I wouldn't wouldn't worry that much about it tbh.

Voting, or at least the store hasn't had much attention in a long time and I feel like it definitely should deserve some attention. Players who vote are supporting the server by making us get ranked high on the toplists. It's rewards should be good, so that we can get close to, if not all active players to vote daily. Currently it's only really rewarding for people who get cleaned or fairly new players because those who want black phats etc just buy their votes or get a few new people with VPNs to vote a lot for them.
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Re: ironman and voting

Post by Iron adam » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:25 pm

Adamthalion wrote:
Adamthalion wrote:
Ruler wrote:I've said this since the start and I will say it again; you're missing out on votes now. There are enough people that only play on ironman. Should've added some expensive cosmetics for ironman vote shop.
I agree. Even if it is as simple as one of those unused party hats. (Gold, Dragon, Barrows, Pink, Rune)
Make them something like 10k vp each. No value in prices. Unalchable. I know I would be willing to grind out the votes for something like that.
Wow this is a great idea. It just looks right!

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Yes I also think this is a great idea!

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