Ultra rares again?

[Slap a ho]

I got 0 compensation for my Addy t

Oh yeah, that too.

[Fungamer]

Piss off a few, appease the masses. Throw 3T ticks on their account and move on imo.

And have Tom Brady v2?


Forcing players has also mostly been out of question for Raosey (and Mike) as far as I can remember.

Personally I dont care too much about this situation but the solution definitely isnt doing it by force. Also note that this discussion was sparked by someone with lots of credits ready to strike and get the lions share of GP., so the intent was already pretty bad to begin with lol

I got 0 compensation for my Addy t

If I got 3t ticks I would’ve been far less pissed off about it LMFAO

Not like what I did is even a big deal or relevant to this discussion. Fairly compensate owners of ultra rares when taking them, don’t blindly yoink them and expect them to be okay with it.

0 compensation is likely to be the way if they take it forcefully though. Some people paid 100b for their legends, some paid 1T. Others paid a variety of items that are worth a ton now, or the other way around, are worth not so much anymore.
Is it fair to get 3T for something you paid 1T for? Sure, you'd want it, but that's not too fair. That turns rares into some fucking investment fund.

Also, what if it's done? About 5 legends would need removing (But that number might be higher), so that's 15T cash being pumped right in the eco. Towards players who don't play anymore and don't care about the game/are even pissed over the game. Or they get pushed over the edge like you (Tom) that their beloved rare is now going to be easily accessible. The RWT watch better do a better job than Epsteins suicide watch. That's at least 3T (or 1T if the offer is lowered, still, 5T into the eco) plus their current bank value. NGL I'd probably be tempted RWT that shit too if it was thrown at me. Free rent and food for the month lmao.

Even if they don't RWT it. Is it really good for the game to throw some of the most experienced players a bunch of money? Even sniffing a line of asbestos wont be equal to the cancer that's going to happen to the economy when a bunch of rich kids get that much wealth just in cash

[Ely]

Releasing rares was originally aimed at giving players the chance to obtain something that unless they win trills staking, was impossible. With this current set-up, we’re only giving items to players who have substantial amounts of wealth.

What exacrly are you referring to when you say it was originally aimed at giving regular players a chance to obtain something that would be impossible to get unless you win trills staking?

Well simply, the items are stuck with a small percent of players, so anyone new coming into the game, unless they have trills can’t buy them. At least with rares coming in through donations its making them more accessible to our current playerbase.

I agree with the selling, and understand the importance of doing so to upkeep the server. As I said before, just players knowing the items are soon coming increase donations, because you simply get much more, sometimes double the amount you would get in times where none have been announced. If we look after the grain sale, credits dropped in price dramatically because it had been so long between the grain and the apron sale. Since your last post, players have already put large sums of credits in the ge for around 8m, simply because this is the lead-up to the new items.

Looking at the grains, everyone who uses the forums new they would be sold again, so why people paid over 1t for them is absurd. I would say it became known only 10 existed, and this is how it was going to stay. I think if you had intentions of selling these again, the item should’ve been left in the shop with the quantity set to 0. When players clicked on the item, it could’ve just said something along the lines of “ultra rare item, sold seasonally/yearly”. I would even argue any item that has been sold or is planned to be sold should be displayed in a tab in the donation shop for this very reason. The only people losing out are the ones lead to believe the items are discontinued, will stay discontinued and are extremely rare. I think this situation showed it’s hard to sell any rare and expect it not to skyrocket regardless of what the credit price is. I know you both never intended or imagined these to be sold for over 400b.

I think it has already become the meta. The majority of people asking for the re-sale of items don’t actually want the items, they want to capitalize on the credits they’ve heavily invested in over the last few months. I would be confident in saying if the next item was unique, & the price is similar to that of grains, with the same stock, they would be sold out within the same day, for example demon kite or legends cape.

I think the big challenge is re-introducing rares, sure players have paid for them over the years at a range of different prices, some paid bills, some paid trils. The apron is the ideal situation, you sold it for slightly under the actual price, which kept the current item owners happy, but also allowed people who donated and paid for credits in-game the opportunity to make some money, but the money made was not trillions.
This would work for the others, but you would need to place the items for a substantial price. If we look at the apron situation, and say we wanted to use this to re-sell legends, I think the only acceptable middle ground is selling them for 500k credits. This places the cost at 1.2 t (provided you paid 2.4m per credit, but this is also very unlikely to be donated for, and is only really accessible to those who have or can buy large amounts of credits. This is massively cheaper then the current price, close to half, but not totally putting the middle finger to the players who have currently got them. And for the record it’s a lot more then 5.

[Will be ok2]

@Ely
I strongly disagree with you,
1) I recommended this and I plan on buying 2-3 ultra rares on release, of course now I am currently buying donor credits through the GE and I’m also planning on donating for credits to buy another rare aswell. It’s not for just “profit”

2) you said white apron was sold for just under the price etc, this is not true, white aprons were being sold for 300-350B prior to the sale on donor shop, now they are 180-210B because 10 were released, 10 is a fraction of what is currently in the eco.

3) the whole idea of this aside from supporting the server it to make it capable of a regular player to obtain an ultra rare, I couldn’t imagine anyone donating for more then 80k-100K which then elimates the entire idea of these items being obtainable by someone who is not currently top 1% rich in game.

4) of course nobody seen these ultra rares becoming 400B, 1t, 3T etc, that’s because nobody probably considered just like real life pkhonor’s economy has inflation, just like any other stable economy, the value of money goes down the the value of goods and services rise, it’s actually a good and healthy thing not a negative.

Lastly - I recommend keeping all the items released under 80K-100K credits to keep it obtainable by anyone.

[Ely]

@Ely
I strongly disagree with you,
1) I recommended this and I plan on buying 2-3 ultra rares on release, of course now I am currently buying donor credits through the GE and I’m also planning on donating for credits to buy another rare aswell. It’s not for just “profit”

2) you said white apron was sold for just under the price etc, this is not true, white aprons were being sold for 300-350B prior to the sale on donor shop, now they are 180-210B because 10 were released, 10 is a fraction of what is currently in the eco.

3) the whole idea of this aside from supporting the server it to make it capable of a regular player to obtain an ultra rare, I couldn’t imagine anyone donating for more then 80k-100K which then elimates the entire idea of these items being obtainable by someone who is not currently top 1% rich in game.

4) of course nobody seen these ultra rares becoming 400B, 1t, 3T etc, that’s because nobody probably considered just like real life pkhonor’s economy has inflation, just like any other stable economy, the value of money goes down the the value of goods and services rise, it’s actually a good and healthy thing not a negative.

Lastly - I recommend keeping all the items released under 80K-100K credits to keep it obtainable by anyone.

I said the majority, not aiming this just at you. Just because you’re now going to keep some of the rares is irrelevant, I still think this is the easiest get rich quick scheme for anyone with a few 100b.

I did say white apron was sold for just under or around the price, this is very true. Don’t forget it was was originally listed for 180b, but then lowered to 150b (based on 2.4m credit) also don’t forget the price people spent on credits was a lot more then 2.4, it ended up being around 3.5m because nobody had time to prepare, the aprons came pretty fast.
Lets say your right, which as far as I can see 350b is incorrect, your still only making 100b? you honestly think it’s a good idea for you to be able to buy a 3t item for a similar amount of credits?

The price of aprons leading up to the sale, and going back a year before have been varied, generally the price was around 200b. I will say some did sell higher, but this looks like stakers paying a stupidly high price just because they want the item quick, and money is almost no objective. Lets not let sales like this give us this false sense of higher value. Aprons got sold for a fair, and slightly under price value.

Point 3 and lastly are the same?
Yeh that’s the point, very few will donated over 200-500k credits just for one item, so the solution to me is simple, don’t reintroduce previous rare items unless the credit price is affordable, with many it should be avoided. Just add more new items like the grain, and once you feel you’ve added enough, and we’re a few years down the line, go over the cycle again.
Inflation sure. I’ll go with manipulation. Anyone who buys one of these items expects to make money, that’s why the prices rise faster than anything else. If you buy a grain for 400b, you wont sell at a loss, its in demand and people want it, generally this is a significant factor on why the prices rise.
This is also why introducing previous rares dose not work, unless you remove the previous supply. Nobody will buy a legends cape and sell it for under 500b, because the market will always deem this item as valuable. This is especially the case if the amount added is 5 or 10, the affect will be minimal and I doubt it’ll drop below 1.5t.

[Rapsey]

I think it'd be pretty fun too if there were 1 or 2 ultra-rares released a year in some form of lottery. Two ideas for this:

1) Not a money-based lottery, but some sort of action based lottery (like an event) to prevent rich players just buying on a bunch of accounts. Sure, players could still use more than one but they wouldn't be able to spam that ability either. Would/should take time

2) The winner of the regular lottery has {1/average number of lotteries the previous year} chance of getting an ultra rare. But this still kind of favors rich players

I can only see this going a couple of ways:

• We try to make it totally random and give every player an equal chance => item goes to whoever has the most VPN's
• We sell them for money => item goes to the richest players
• We give it as a competitive PvM event reward (so players have to focus all their efforts on one account to win) => item goes to whoever is able to play the most during that event
• We give it as a competitive PvP event reward => item goes to one of maybe 10 avid PK'ers (hardly an equal chance for everyone) and some of them will probably try to use VPN's to have multiple chances in the tournament

None of these seem like particularly good outcomes to me. Considering these items already are a super-expensive thing that can only be bought by the ultra-rich it seemed best to just sell them, that way nothing changes and the server can actually benefit from it, as opposed to just making 1 player super happy.

Isn't just giving them out a bit over the top though? I don't really get it. We've never given out substantial amounts of wealth. Even the top event rewards are only worth a couple of bills. If we did some sort of giveaway with a 100B reward it would already be huge. Why jump from next-to-nothing to the complete other extreme of the spectrum? Isn't it kinda absurd to just turn random players into trillionaires?

0 compensation is likely to be the way if they take it forcefully though. Some people paid 100b for their legends, some paid 1T. Others paid a variety of items that are worth a ton now, or the other way around, are worth not so much anymore.

Not at all. Aside from the one exception with Tom Brady, all other discontinued item removals were compensated at their market value. Tom's case was the only time when such an item was still in the possession of the original recipient, had never been traded and had no established market value. In the case of the other rares we removed, everyone who had one had bought it for a substantial amount of money.

This is our normal way of operating. When one person obtains a bunch of items and then sells them to other players (as happened with legends) we wouldn't rectify that situation by penalizing the players who bought them. They had nothing to do with it. We remove the items from the guy who first obtained them (and the money he made from selling them) without any compensation, but when confiscating them from the buyers we would obviously give them their money back. Status quo is the goal. You don't want anyone to profit from it but you also don't want anyone to lose money over it.

Is it fair to get 3T for something you paid 1T for? Sure, you'd want it, but that's not too fair. That turns rares into some fucking investment fund.

These rares have always been an investment fund, one with a ridiculous and guaranteed growth rate. It's essentially a way for the richest to double their bank value every 1-2 years and stay on top without even playing the game.

Well simply, the items are stuck with a small percent of players, so anyone new coming into the game, unless they have trills can’t buy them. At least with rares coming in through donations its making them more accessible to our current playerbase.

True, but they were never meant to be sold for way below their value. In fact we always thought of it as something that would rarely be bought by the donators themselves (it's just so much money for one person to pay) but mostly be bought by rich veterans using their massive in-game wealth to buy credits from multiple donators. So yes we wanted to make them available to players but not make them available to people who otherwise just couldn't afford one. If anything we want to preserve their status as an item for the elite.

Looking at the grains, everyone who uses the forums new they would be sold again, so why people paid over 1t for them is absurd. I would say it became known only 10 existed, and this is how it was going to stay. I think if you had intentions of selling these again, the item should’ve been left in the shop with the quantity set to 0. When players clicked on the item, it could’ve just said something along the lines of “ultra rare item, sold seasonally/yearly”. I would even argue any item that has been sold or is planned to be sold should be displayed in a tab in the donation shop for this very reason. The only people losing out are the ones lead to believe the items are discontinued, will stay discontinued and are extremely rare. I think this situation showed it’s hard to sell any rare and expect it not to skyrocket regardless of what the credit price is. I know you both never intended or imagined these to be sold for over 400b.

Okay, well:

The "keep them in the shops at 0 stock" I don't really agree with. Honestly I don't think this would change anything in how players view them or how much money they're willing to pay for them. The news post releasing them explicitly said they would be sold again as early as 6 months after. If they didn't get that then I doubt a 0-stock item in the shop is going to drive the message home.

Besides, the idea that an item is never going to be sold again isn't something these players just make up for themselves. They only think that because another player told them that's the way it is and they believed it. That would still happen just as often even if they were in the shop at 0 stock.

Yes, quite a few people know there are currently only ~10 in the game. If this information leads them to decide to overpay I say let them. It's an open economy, everyone is free to make their own predictions about what will happen to the price of an item and use those predictions to make speculative investments. It's our responsibility not to mislead anyone, but IMO as long as we're clear about everything it's not our responsibility to stop people from misleading themselves or others.

I think it has already become the meta. The majority of people asking for the re-sale of items don’t actually want the items, they want to capitalize on the credits they’ve heavily invested in over the last few months. I would be confident in saying if the next item was unique, & the price is similar to that of grains, with the same stock, they would be sold out within the same day, for example demon kite or legends cape.

Yup, but we see that as an added bonus. Regardless, we can see how many credits people have stacked up so it's not hard to choose a stock amount that can't immediately be bought up. I wouldn't worry about it.

I think the big challenge is re-introducing rares, sure players have paid for them over the years at a range of different prices, some paid bills, some paid trils. The apron is the ideal situation, you sold it for slightly under the actual price, which kept the current item owners happy, but also allowed people who donated and paid for credits in-game the opportunity to make some money, but the money made was not trillions.
This would work for the others, but you would need to place the items for a substantial price. If we look at the apron situation, and say we wanted to use this to re-sell legends, I think the only acceptable middle ground is selling them for 500k credits. This places the cost at 1.2 t (provided you paid 2.4m per credit, but this is also very unlikely to be donated for, and is only really accessible to those who have or can buy large amounts of credits. This is massively cheaper then the current price, close to half, but not totally putting the middle finger to the players who have currently got them. And for the record it’s a lot more then 5.

Personally I don't think it matters or acts as a middle finger to current owners if we sell a limited number at a lower price. I think what matters most to people is not the price we sell them at, but what happens to the price of the item in general as a result of us selling it. As long as we take care to do it in such a way that it doesn't drop the market value of the item I don't think anyone is bummed out about it. But of course we're not going to go too far below it, that just wouldn't work.

If you wanted to sell them WAY cheap you'd have two options: limited stock (which means they are sold out in the first 5 minutes) or unlimited stock (which means they either sell massively and the prices crash, or they don't sell at all because people anticipate this sale will crash the prices making them a bad buy). Either way the results are quite terrible, no good would come from selling them dirt cheap. The ideal seems to be to price them a little below their market value.

Alright, with that I think I have exceeded my total post character limit for today. But again it's really good to hear all your thoughts on this subject. It's perhaps the most delicate matter in all of PkHonor so having that feedback is crucial in making sure we don't mess it up.

[Iron adam]

i think we should ban all players with discontinued items

[Patel]

I can only see this going a couple of ways:

• We try to make it totally random and give every player an equal chance => item goes to whoever has the most VPN's
• We sell them for money => item goes to the richest players
• We give it as a competitive PvM event reward (so players have to focus all their efforts on one account to win) => item goes to whoever is able to play the most during that event
• We give it as a competitive PvP event reward => item goes to one of maybe 10 avid PK'ers (hardly an equal chance for everyone) and some of them will probably try to use VPN's to have multiple chances in the tournament

None of these seem like particularly good outcomes to me. Considering these items already are a super-expensive thing that can only be bought by the ultra-rich it seemed best to just sell them, that way nothing changes and the server can actually benefit from it, as opposed to just making 1 player super happy.

I think for any given set of rules one could always devise a way to abuse a complex system. The idea here is that the less trivial it is to enter the draw, the less mass-abuse is to be an issue. A few players abusing VPNs is negligible compared to all of the rich players being able to spam-purchase lottery tickets at a whim (if they so desire). And even that doesn't happen too often. But between the low frequency of these lotteries that I've proposed and the large volume of tickets that I anticipate, I doubt that they could skew the likelihoods in their favor unless they did it consistently for years. And even then, they're just putting the probability more their favor; there is no assurance.

I don't think the last two points capture what I was saying - I'm saying the ability to even be entered into a draw is packed behind some sort of event a set of non-trivial actions. Sure, if you want you can perform the actions on multiple accounts to snag a couple extra tickets, but even then it's still not assured. To bar people from just spamming brand new accounts the lottery event could be placed behind a total-level barrier of some sort, a time played barrier, a puzzle that requires actual thinking, something else, or a mix thereof. There are many ways to minimize (note: not absolutely prevent, which I deem impossible) abuse from multiple accounts. I'm a huge fan of puzzles and would be happy to try and work something out. Heck, we could do multiple events from across the board to allow for entries. Maybe only 10 golden tickets are available - 1 comes from a lottery like the one we have and favors the rich; a lottery to win a golden lottery ticket. 2 tickets come from pking tournies, where 1st and 2nd place get an entry. 2 tickets are random, extremely improbable drops from monsters. 2 tickets are from some sort of IRL advertising contest, cuz why not? 2 tickets are from an event as I described, with some mix of puzzles and questing. And the last ticket can just be totally subjective. Maybe someone the owners like. Someone voted on by the community. A total shitshow for 1/10 of a chance at an ultra rare. Throw in an 11th that you can buy for 1M credits, cuz why not.

Isn't just giving them out a bit over the top though? I don't really get it. We've never given out substantial amounts of wealth. Even the top event rewards are only worth a couple of bills. If we did some sort of giveaway with a 100B reward it would already be huge. Why jump from next-to-nothing to the complete other extreme of the spectrum? Isn't it kinda absurd to just turn random players into trillionaires?

I mean, this is what Duel Arena does every now and then. A new player comes in, stakes their initial earnings, and just happens to the be one player out of thousands that kept winning. Some lose it all afterwards, some keep it. But this phenomena is nothing new, I suppose having a lottery just puts the agency in your hands a bit more. The best part is that because this is a rare occurrence it only happens a couple times every few years - exactly the frequency I had in mind for a lottery anyways.

[Will be ok2]

I think it should also be kept in mind the current cost of donor credits, any rare sold for over 100K credits just wouldn’t sell except for the one person who has 500K racked up in credits then again it’ll be “rich gets richer” I think a big aspect of this ultra rare in donor shop is that a normal person who doesn’t have a huge bank could donate IRL money for one.

I also think white apron would be a very bad idea to be re-added and it would drop the price a lot, I suggest what Ely said and have it be known that all the ultra rares can circulate the game by donator shop, by once added I don’t think that an item should be re-added more then once every 2 years for the integrity of its price and status.

[Rapsey]

I think for any given set of rules one could always devise a way to abuse a complex system. The idea here is that the less trivial it is to enter the draw, the less mass-abuse is to be an issue. A few players abusing VPNs is negligible compared to all of the rich players being able to spam-purchase lottery tickets at a whim (if they so desire). And even that doesn't happen too often. But between the low frequency of these lotteries that I've proposed and the large volume of tickets that I anticipate, I doubt that they could skew the likelihoods in their favor unless they did it consistently for years. And even then, they're just putting the probability more their favor; there is no assurance.

I don't think the last two points capture what I was saying - I'm saying the ability to even be entered into a draw is packed behind some sort of event a set of non-trivial actions. Sure, if you want you can perform the actions on multiple accounts to snag a couple extra tickets, but even then it's still not assured. To bar people from just spamming brand new accounts the lottery event could be placed behind a total-level barrier of some sort, a time played barrier, a puzzle that requires actual thinking, something else, or a mix thereof. There are many ways to minimize (note: not absolutely prevent, which I deem impossible) abuse from multiple accounts. I'm a huge fan of puzzles and would be happy to try and work something out. Heck, we could do multiple events from across the board to allow for entries.

I guess it just depends on how you define "fair". If you define it as "everyone should have an equal chance" (even casual players) then I do believe it's impossible. Everyone can pretend to be a different player on alts and there is absolutely no way to tell. Even if you add a bunch of requirements people will still do it. Putting a few hours into an alt to multiply your chance at winning an item worth trillions? That's a no-brainer. As you say, you can limit just how hard people can cheat and they will never be able to guarantee success, but that doesn't change the fact that it would absolutely not be a fair draw.

I don't think of "fair" as giving everyone an equal chance at winning. I'd be all for it if it were possible, but to me "fair" means not being able to cheat. It's the same as in competitive sports. You outline rules and then have a fair contest within those rules. You don't do this to give every participant an equal chance at winning. You do it so that they are all fighting the same battle and no one can use any dirty tricks to gain an advantage.

In that sense I think selling them is the fairest option of them all. You can't cheat in that, everyone is limited by how much money they have. I get it, it's kinda dull, not really a competition and not really fair (then again, is it really unfair that only rich people can buy the most expensive things?). But I still think that's way more fair than a contest where everyone has an equal chance except the people who cheated, they have a multiple of everyone else's chance. You may not see this as much of a problem if they can "only" increase their chances fivefold or something, but IMO that level of unfairness is already more than enough to think we're better off not having such a contest at all.

Maybe only 10 golden tickets are available - 1 comes from a lottery like the one we have and favors the rich; a lottery to win a golden lottery ticket. 2 tickets come from pking tournies, where 1st and 2nd place get an entry. 2 tickets are random, extremely improbable drops from monsters. 2 tickets are from some sort of IRL advertising contest, cuz why not? 2 tickets are from an event as I described, with some mix of puzzles and questing. And the last ticket can just be totally subjective. Maybe someone the owners like. Someone voted on by the community. A total shitshow for 1/10 of a chance at an ultra rare. Throw in an 11th that you can buy for 1M credits, cuz why not.

Sounds like we should be calling you Mr. Wonka.

I mean, this is what Duel Arena does every now and then. A new player comes in, stakes their initial earnings, and just happens to the be one player out of thousands that kept winning. Some lose it all afterwards, some keep it. But this phenomena is nothing new, I suppose having a lottery just puts the agency in your hands a bit more. The best part is that because this is a rare occurrence it only happens a couple times every few years - exactly the frequency I had in mind for a lottery anyways.

Yes, it certainly does happen in the duel arena but my question is more: why do you think this is a good thing? If there is anything we have learned from the duel arena it's that it is actually a very bad thing. Generally speaking, players who suddenly amass a huge amount of wealth quickly get bored with the game. All of a sudden all the goals they had are instantly ticked off as they can now buy everything they ever wanted. No more point in PvM'ing, it's all too insignificant and far too much work to earn a few more bills. Usually they just end up staking until they lose it all and quit.

So really that's my question. Why do you think it's beneficial to take a player who is still progressing through the game and just give them enough money to buy everything 10 times over? Isn't that a bit like Jagex taking a random OSRS player and going: here, we've just made all your stats 99, congratz! Well great but actually... improving my stats was my main drive for playing the game. Not much left to do now...

It may be a strange comparison but I hope you can see what I'm getting at. Giving a random OSRS player a 1M XP lamp would be a hugely nice gift. Giving them all 99's is such a big gift that it actually spoils the game for them. That's kinda how I feel about taking someone who's only ever had 100B and suddenly giving them 3T.