Completionist cape (chaos) rework

PkHonor's work in progress and future updates will be posted here.

Do you agree with the proposed change to the Completionist caps (chaos)?

Yes, I agree to make the speed increase depend on a weapon's base attack speed
70
77%
No, I disagree. Keep everything the way it currently works
19
21%
Other (or I don't have a strong opinion on this)
2
2%
 
Total votes: 91

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Rapsey
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Re: Completionist cape (chaos) rework

Post by Rapsey » Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:02 am

I would like to add to this that there are indeed legitimate concerns that have been raised by the people who are wary of this change. Where we are firm in our stance is that we believe it is wrong to conclude "and therefore the change can't happen, period". For one thing we believe that the benefits vastly outweigh any downsides. But more than that, we also think there are steps we can take to minimize or even completely eliminate those downsides while still allowing the change to happen.

The proposals in this topic have been focused on addressing the two biggest downsides:
  • Making sure the speed / ease / profitability of PvM remains largely unaffected
  • Making sure chaos comp remains potent and useful (arguably it will be even more so than before)
Although this has been presented as a yes / no poll to see if those proposals are acceptable, we do invite further input in regards to how this might affect kill counts or any other concerns. Please share with us any ideas you may have on how we can resolve those issues. It's true that we won't let those things stand in the way of progress and justify veto'ing the entire project, but we are trying to do everything we can to make sure this change comes with as little negative effect as it possibly can.

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Brant
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Re: Completionist cape (chaos) rework

Post by Brant » Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:37 am

Mike wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:40 am
As much as I appreciate you (along with the 80% of other players) to support our decision, I also believe it is important that anyone with a different opinion is allowed to voice their concerns without being bashed for it (I completely understand your frustration and there have been many times where I would have responded in the exact same way, so I shouldn't be one to judge). So let's try to keep it civil. We can't expect everyone to agree, and everyone's opinion is equally valid, for whatever reason. What's important to them might not be as important to others, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored outright. To me, the most important thing is that over 75% of the community (so far) supports these changes, which is more than enough to consider this an "absolute majority" (which to me usually means at least 2 out of 3 players).

Either way, I stand firmly by these changes, a lot of thought and tweaking has gone into it, and yes, there will be some leaderboards and personal best times that will be skewed. These concerns are not entirely unfounded and I hadn't considered them before. However, as far as I can see, the upsides still heavily outweigh any downsides. At least we don't have any official boss timers yet, so I guess it's good to do these kind of rebalancing before introducing those timers.
Perhaps I was a little too blunt but my point still stands. No one is forcing you to be here. Much like what happened to RS2 when going to rs3 with EoC, those who didn't like it left. I see this as the same situation as EoC albeit not to the full extent, but has the same effect. Back when BP was released we didn't have charts of info telling us just how powerful the BP would become. In hind sight, it was a poor decision to make it work that way, but I'm glad it's finally being corrected.

@Will be ok2 I wasn't directing that statement at you personally, it was more of everyone who thought a 1/500 drop from zulrah should be anywhere more powerful then a 1/500 from Cox. Sure the price range is quite a jump, but look at dragon boot and stead/primordial. Dboots are about 2m while steads and prims are in the bills and yet, the steads and prims give very slight boosted stats. Such is for weapons, bis is gonna be worth 500b or so, and you want a 8b weapon to be better? Miss me with that bs.

As for the collection logs and kill count, kills are going to be to be roughly the same per hour. Unless you can give me an example of how this would affect it in any way, I'm open ears.

It's almost as a shifting meta is a bad thing in your guys eyes. If the meta never changes, things get boring. Imagine if smash bros made there game and never decided to update it with combat tweeks. You would have everyone use the same character and it wouldn't be interesting. Such as with this. If people find out that tbow is a good weapon and sells for alot, people will go to Cox to get it cause it would be a hell of a drop. As it currently stands, BP was the meta so people would always go to zurlah and is why the price on BP is as low as it is. Not to mention its not a rare drop from zulrah which is piss easy compared to something like Cox. When more people are going for tbow cause it's actually worth going for, over time the price of the item will go down due to increase supply. As with new releases on os, the beginning price is extremely high due to little demand then tailors off as more people obtain said item.

As for the kill times, that's something that even old school had to deal with. As metas change, new PB's become a thing. If it comes to a massive change like when osrs changed the BP and nerfed it, they wiped people's times and it was free game for everyone. Plus as Mike said, we don't have an official boss timers so as I see it, everyone is on an equal footing for that.

As for this affecting everyone, Mike stated that they would be nerfing the defence of the bosses more so making it even easier to kill them with other gear including those without chaos comp. So is a win for those people as well.

The last argument is that it would cause bugs and weird mechanics to happen and increase xp. As with anything, bugs are bound to happen. That's why they get fixed and we moved on. As for the XP, the only xp that would get buffed is if you are dharok bombing stuff which even then it's not the best to do as seen on the charts. Xp is directly tied to how hard you hit and how fast. The weapon new vs old tells you how much faster it would getting xp with said item, and most are within 10% of what they normally are which are fractions difference.


Unless you guys have any other points you forgot to mention or come up with, all the ones given thus far are either not a deal or have no actual affect about the topic.

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Iron ra
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Re: Completionist cape (chaos) rework

Post by Iron ra » Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:44 am

Brant wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:12 pm But you guys are acting like kill counts are going to be affected by this? Kill counts were messed up on release. A loud minority is toxic. I have over 75% of the community backing me up on this issue. None of the points hoard made have anything to do with the fact a bow that's way harder to get should be worst then a BP that can take less then 200 kc at zulrah to get. And you guys want it to be bis. Read the charts. BP is still going to be decent, but the weapon that's harder to get will be the best as it should.
This wasn't my meaning at all, I took it as a wipe to the current kc's.. I voted in favor of this 😀
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Mike
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Re: Completionist cape (chaos) rework

Post by Mike » Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:48 pm

Brant wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:37 am Perhaps I was a little too blunt but my point still stands. No one is forcing you to be here. Much like what happened to RS2 when going to rs3 with EoC, those who didn't like it left. I see this as the same situation as EoC albeit not to the full extent, but has the same effect. Back when BP was released we didn't have charts of info telling us just how powerful the BP would become. In hind sight, it was a poor decision to make it work that way, but I'm glad it's finally being corrected.

@Will be ok2 I wasn't directing that statement at you personally, it was more of everyone who thought a 1/500 drop from zulrah should be anywhere more powerful then a 1/500 from Cox. Sure the price range is quite a jump, but look at dragon boot and stead/primordial. Dboots are about 2m while steads and prims are in the bills and yet, the steads and prims give very slight boosted stats. Such is for weapons, bis is gonna be worth 500b or so, and you want a 8b weapon to be better? Miss me with that bs.

As for the collection logs and kill count, kills are going to be to be roughly the same per hour. Unless you can give me an example of how this would affect it in any way, I'm open ears.

It's almost as a shifting meta is a bad thing in your guys eyes. If the meta never changes, things get boring. Imagine if smash bros made there game and never decided to update it with combat tweeks. You would have everyone use the same character and it wouldn't be interesting. Such as with this. If people find out that tbow is a good weapon and sells for alot, people will go to Cox to get it cause it would be a hell of a drop. As it currently stands, BP was the meta so people would always go to zurlah and is why the price on BP is as low as it is. Not to mention its not a rare drop from zulrah which is piss easy compared to something like Cox. When more people are going for tbow cause it's actually worth going for, over time the price of the item will go down due to increase supply. As with new releases on os, the beginning price is extremely high due to little demand then tailors off as more people obtain said item.

As for the kill times, that's something that even old school had to deal with. As metas change, new PB's become a thing. If it comes to a massive change like when osrs changed the BP and nerfed it, they wiped people's times and it was free game for everyone. Plus as Mike said, we don't have an official boss timers so as I see it, everyone is on an equal footing for that.

As for this affecting everyone, Mike stated that they would be nerfing the defence of the bosses more so making it even easier to kill them with other gear including those without chaos comp. So is a win for those people as well.

The last argument is that it would cause bugs and weird mechanics to happen and increase xp. As with anything, bugs are bound to happen. That's why they get fixed and we moved on. As for the XP, the only xp that would get buffed is if you are dharok bombing stuff which even then it's not the best to do as seen on the charts. Xp is directly tied to how hard you hit and how fast. The weapon new vs old tells you how much faster it would getting xp with said item, and most are within 10% of what they normally are which are fractions difference.


Unless you guys have any other points you forgot to mention or come up with, all the ones given thus far are either not a deal or have no actual affect about the topic.
Nailed it right there. Thank you!

Considering the overwhelming support, it's clear that this is how we will move forward.
As Rapsey said though, we are definitely still open to constructive feedback and ideas to minimize the downsides (if any). So if people have ideas to further improve on the proposed changes, we're all ears!

Snapzhot
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Re: Completionist cape (chaos) rework

Post by Snapzhot » Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:57 pm

Can we have more presets to accommodate the need for more diverse combat equipment
Last edited by Snapzhot on Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Will be ok2
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Re: Completionist cape (chaos) rework

Post by Will be ok2 » Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:04 pm

Snapzhot wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:57 pm Can we have more presets to accommodate the need for more "versatile" combat equipment
OMG THIS!!!!!
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Stale fish1
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Re: Completionist cape (chaos) rework

Post by Stale fish1 » Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:19 am

Snapzhot wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:57 pm Can we have more presets to accommodate the need for more "versatile" combat equipment
This is actually a really good point..

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Hoard
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Re: Completionist cape (chaos) rework

Post by Hoard » Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:56 am

Can we at the very least make the new T-bow slightly better than the current blowpipe? I just cannot seem to get over a 300-500B price increase for a weapon that is going to be worse than the current 5B one. We could add a ruby bolt like spec that would hit on occasion? Just something to make this update seem like anything positive for someone with a completionist cape.
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Onlyfens
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Re: Completionist cape (chaos) rework

Post by Onlyfens » Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:47 pm

Hoard wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:56 am Can we at the very least make the new T-bow slightly better than the current blowpipe? I just cannot seem to get over a 300-500B price increase for a weapon that is going to be worse than the current 5B one. We could add a ruby bolt like spec that would hit on occasion? Just something to make this update seem like anything positive for someone with a completionist cape.
Yeah, definitly a good point!
Maybe could be done with increasing the accuracy aswell?

100% agree with your suggestion.

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Re: Completionist cape (chaos) rework

Post by Mitrovic » Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:19 pm

I just checked all these tables again, and I assume something has gone wrong with Zulrah, no? If I recall correct, the blue form should be the one who is the weakest to range attacks. But in this table, let's take the one displaying the current situation, the average blowpipe dps on the green form is 17,48 and on the blue form is it only 3,19? How is this possible? I don't see how you came up with these numbers. It looks like this 3,19 should be for the red form, 10,56 for the green form and 17,48 for the blue form, no?

Also, if i use the monster examine on zulrah, it displays the stats of the serpentine form everytime, even if I use it on the magma or tanzanite form. In the defensive stats tab, it always says -45 magic and +50 range, regardless of the form she has at that moment.
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