20 October updates: NPC pathfinding, item sets, bugfixes

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Re: 20 October updates: NPC pathfinding, item sets, bugfixes

Postby B0rnt0bepeek » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:39 pm

Yeah got to admit, From Moabs crate, to ricks white staff, and so on, Tomas is the only one who kept his item for years, without selling it, or without being banned for rwting and gets told basically his item isn't special because Hamade had to no real authority to do so in the first place.

/soz Tomas.
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Re: 20 October updates: NPC pathfinding, item sets, bugfixes

Postby Patel » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:41 pm

B0rnt0bepeek wrote:Yeah got to admit, From Moabs crate, to ricks white staff, and so on, Tomas is the only one who kept his item for years, without selling it, or without being banned for rwting and gets told basically his item isn't special because Hamade had to no real authority to do so in the first place.

/soz Tomas.


Agreed. Though Hamade did have the authority to do this. He was the owner at the time.

Just felt that Tomas got enough of the butt end of deals while he was around (and I guess now while he's not around), despite being one of the few genuine players. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: 20 October updates: NPC pathfinding, item sets, bugfixes

Postby B0rnt0bepeek » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:32 pm

Eater wrote:
B0rnt0bepeek wrote:Yeah got to admit, From Moabs crate, to ricks white staff, and so on, Tomas is the only one who kept his item for years, without selling it, or without being banned for rwting and gets told basically his item isn't special because Hamade had to no real authority to do so in the first place.

/soz Tomas.


Agreed. Though Hamade did have the authority to do this. He was the owner at the time.

Just felt that Tomas got enough of the butt end of deals while he was around (and I guess now while he's not around), despite being one of the few genuine players. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I concur, full heartedly, even if it's not my item in jeopardy.
Hamade made these particular items relevant years ago, and nothing was said about it, nor were they even messed with when the first announcement of d kites, grains etc being removed.

It's basically like giving Keith advisor, and then removing it because it was given to him by a former Super who no longer plays. Just because the status (or even in light if Tom's item) was given as a token of appreciation, doesn't mean it should be removed/worthless just because the person responsible isn't relevant anymore.

@Rapsey - Saying Hamade didn't have authority is a bit of a stretch. He was labeled owner, and in with that title, made deals with players for irl money (which was well known back then). Between the donations he accepted for custom items, (obviously not the ones given to people as tokens of a particular reason) and the deals he would make with players for other things, there should of been a removal of EVERYTHING he handed out after this resignation, not years later.
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Re: 20 October updates: NPC pathfinding, item sets, bugfixes

Postby Gethigh udie » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:54 pm

B0rnt0bepeek wrote:
Eater wrote:
B0rnt0bepeek wrote:Yeah got to admit, From Moabs crate, to ricks white staff, and so on, Tomas is the only one who kept his item for years, without selling it, or without being banned for rwting and gets told basically his item isn't special because Hamade had to no real authority to do so in the first place.

/soz Tomas.


Agreed. Though Hamade did have the authority to do this. He was the owner at the time.

Just felt that Tomas got enough of the butt end of deals while he was around (and I guess now while he's not around), despite being one of the few genuine players. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I concur, full heartedly, even if it's not my item in jeopardy.
Hamade made these particular items relevant years ago, and nothing was said about it, nor were they even messed with when the first announcement of d kites, grains etc being removed.

It's basically like giving Keith advisor, and then removing it because it was given to him by a former Super who no longer plays. Just because the status (or even in light if Tom's item) was given as a token of appreciation, doesn't mean it should be removed/worthless just because the person responsible isn't relevant anymore.

@Rapsey - Saying Hamade didn't have authority is a bit of a stretch. He was labeled owner, and in with that title, made deals with players for irl money (which was well known back then). Between the donations he accepted for custom items, (obviously not the ones given to people as tokens of a particular reason) and the deals he would make with players for other things, there should of been a removal of EVERYTHING he handed out after this resignation, not years later.


Well, it wouldn't really be like that cause Tom himself stated it wasn't for a "token of appreciation" it was more like "sorry for being a dick too you". It's simple, imo old owners shouldn't have been dishing out one of a kind items, fetching huge price tags, giving said players that sold these items trillions. It's like being a stepping down ceo of a company, and telling the company "that nothing is going to change" when in reality IT absolutely will with a new ceo/owner/etc every single time in some way or another. It's easy for someone to say they would never enter the eco, when they weren't and aren't the one who had too keep the promise. Giving players statues & ranks that show your dedication and perseverance, but don't effect the economy in any way should of been the only way too go. We have already been holding onto a mistake for 5 years, and he's had his time with these one of a kind items, that's more then fair of an apology imo.
Last edited by Gethigh udie on Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 20 October updates: NPC pathfinding, item sets, bugfixes

Postby Rapsey » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:54 pm

Ruler wrote:I think this a bit dumb... Tomas being proud on his items, keeping them instead of selling, got him fucked now. Other people that sold their uniques are basically being awarded for not being proud on their unique gift they got.

B0rnt0bepeek wrote:Yeah got to admit, From Moabs crate, to ricks white staff, and so on, Tomas is the only one who kept his item for years, without selling it, or without being banned for rwting and gets told basically his item isn't special because Hamade had to no real authority to do so in the first place.

/soz Tomas.

That's not true. He's not the only one, he's just the only one who posts about it on the forums. The others don't seem to care all that much.

It's also not really fair to say that Tomas is getting fucked compared to the rest. The only people who were able to make money from these items are the ones who sold them, either after receiving them as an inappropriate gift or after buying them from another player. For those who are currently in possession of the item the treatment is the same: undo the action, confiscate the item and reimburse what it cost them to get it. It wouldn't make much sense to confiscate without reimbursement if the player has paid 1T for the item. We want to make sure no one loses money over this. That's not the same as making sure everyone gets the opportunity to make profit off of it.

In the end everyone had the choice: do I keep the item or do I take the money? It's easy to assume that those who sold their one-offs made massive bank over it but the reality is that most people who sold theirs did so after a few months or a year and made a few bills, not a few trills. This seems like a fair trade-off to me: either you keep the item for a relatively short time + money, or you get to be the proud owner of a one-off item for 5 years and get no money.

To me this argument feels a lot like: "Wouldn't it be nice if we could have our cake and eat it too?"
Yeah, that would be the ultimate best-case scenario wouldn't it? Get to have a one-off for 5 years and then at the end cash out at maximum value. I get it, best of both worlds, it's a tempting idea but not necessarily a fair one. No one else got to profit from their gifts like that.

There's also the problem that an item which has never been sold technically doesn't have a value. You could argue: people were willing to pay THIS much for it, but since no one ever did we'll never know how much they would've paid. Talk is cheap.

Finally, there is some sweet irony in expecting such items to be reimbursed at full current economy value. Consider for a moment that the only reason these items have such an inflated value now is because we decided to be nice and let you keep them for 5 years. If we had reintroduced them 1-2 years after you got them (like we intended) their "value" would've been much lower. This has nothing to do with the item and is simply the result of veteran banks getting bigger over the years so the richest of the rich now have more cash to burn on one-off items. If anyone insists on a full refund at current market value that'd really make me wish we had taken those items years ago. No good deed ever goes unpunished.

Eater wrote:Agreed. Though Hamade did have the authority to do this. He was the owner at the time.

Wrong. Hamade had the power to do that, not the authority. I have the ability to give y'all 10T, doesn't mean I'm authorized to do that. I realize this doesn't mean much to you as a player but although we are supers we don't get to do whatever we want. We have our own code of conduct to follow for what is or isn't OK to do. If one super decides to use their powers and do something behind the backs of the others then that's still power abuse, just the same as if it had been done by a staff member.

Rank and the ability to do something does not guarantee the authority to do it, not for staff members nor for supers. Hamade may have been the owner but he wasn't the boss, he didn't have the authority to decide such things on his own.

B0rnt0bepeek wrote:I concur, full heartedly, even if it's not my item in jeopardy.
Hamade made these particular items relevant years ago, and nothing was said about it, nor were they even messed with when the first announcement of d kites, grains etc being removed.

It's basically like giving Keith advisor, and then removing it because it was given to him by a former Super who no longer plays. Just because the status (or even in light if Tom's item) was given as a token of appreciation, doesn't mean it should be removed/worthless just because the person responsible isn't relevant anymore.

@Rapsey - Saying Hamade didn't have authority is a bit of a stretch. He was labeled owner, and in with that title, made deals with players for irl money (which was well known back then). Between the donations he accepted for custom items, (obviously not the ones given to people as tokens of a particular reason) and the deals he would make with players for other things, there should of been a removal of EVERYTHING he handed out after this resignation, not years later.

Wrong, we did talk about it years ago, both before and around the time of the grains & dkites. There have been several major discussion topics on this subject. We even made it clear that in time all these customs would either disappear and/or be reintroduced.

As for Keith's Advisor status, frankly if that had been given without the consent of other supers we would've reverted it without hesitation so your argument really doesn't fly.

As for Hamade's authority, see above. You're right it should've been done immediately after it happened but we only found out about it much later and by that time there was no real rush anymore.

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Re: 20 October updates: NPC pathfinding, item sets, bugfixes

Postby Ruler » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:08 pm

I understand your point, and especially because these items are part of set, I understand the change. You want to get rid of all these uniques, so giving a different unique is also not the solution. But I am pretty sure he had offers of at least 1T on those items, he decided not to sell the item, and he's being punished for that now. The way he is treated with this change only shows every other owner of a unique, to sell their uniques for trills before it is too late or as many many many others have done, RWT. That's not a signal you want to give.

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Re: 20 October updates: NPC pathfinding, item sets, bugfixes

Postby B0rnt0bepeek » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:12 pm

Doesn't make sense.
You guys found out about it later? I was in a converstaion @jail with Hamade and mike years ago, where Hamade explained to me that I could buy a custom item for 500b. Mike went afk, Hamade and I talked it over, but the item I wanted couldn't be done since someone had it already. Then when Mike logged, it went from gp to USD, and I remember telling him I'd never pay for virtual items with irl currency.

So although you weren't in the convo, I'd like to think Mike seen the discussion before logging, and left it up to Hamade to decide. I don't know how so many custom or 1 off items can enter a game without you guys knowing, or looking, to see where they came from.

The not knowing line is border line "meh". I know you told us in the past that you're more forums presence than actual ingame, but the items had to be known about way before you claim.
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Re: 20 October updates: NPC pathfinding, item sets, bugfixes

Postby Patel » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:10 pm

Wrong.


Raps. I'm not trying to be rude here

Rapsey wrote:Hamade had the power to do that, not the authority. I have the ability to give y'all 10T, doesn't mean I'm authorized to do that. I realize this doesn't mean much to you as a player but although we are supers we don't get to do whatever we want. We have our own code of conduct to follow for what is or isn't OK to do. If one super decides to use their powers and do something behind the backs of the others then that's still power abuse, just the same as if it had been done by a staff member.

Rank and the ability to do something does not guarantee the authority to do it, not for staff members nor for supers. Hamade may have been the owner but he wasn't the boss, he didn't have the authority to decide such things on his own.


Telling us he didn't have the authority is revisionist history at best, or atleast a claim made without having experienced the other end of his authority. In the minds of every player and staff member, he had the authority to make that claim. It was an authoritative claim to everyone who heard it, and it was taken with the presupposition that he had the authority to make it. The idea that he didn't have that authority is spoken from the point of view of someone that he didn't have authority over to begin with. For the many thousands of players who weren't in that position, this is simply not true. If it were, he would've been put in check when it happened. So of course when someone in that position tells you "oh this is yours and yours only," you don't take it with a grain of salt. No reasonable person would, and any reasonable person would expect that claim to last.

I understand that you and Mike had not yet involved yourselves with most (social) affairs ingame at the time, but this rebuttal took the wrong lens on the matter. In your shoes I wouldn't want to take responsibility for the actions of someone who I disagreed with either, especially when it gets in the way of bigger, overarching goals. I get that man.

The point isn't even to undo the change. The point is to either double down and admit that despite Tomas getting the butt end of the deal again, this is for the better, (etc.), or to compensate. It's only a real pity to the ~10 or so people left on here that either were a mod alongside him or knew him when he was anyways, and ofc Tomas himself.

Edit: And in principle, whichever other players got the butt end of this as well.
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Re: 20 October updates: NPC pathfinding, item sets, bugfixes

Postby Tom brady » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:22 pm

For the record, I had multiple 3T+ offers on that set during my possession and never sold it, so I AM losig money. But, I don’t even care about the monetary value of the items, I only cared about being the only one with them. I could have cashed out and made a nice penny off of them but kept them out of respect and not flooding the economy with more one-offs. You could give me some form of non-monetary compensation instead of just adding to the already long list of how many times I’ve been fucked over.

Also, @everyone saying this is right: imagine being in my shoes. Being proud of something and having it taken. Having the items for x amount of years doesn’t mean shit just to have them taken, I didn’t “have my time.” I shouldn’t have to expect my time to end with them just because, that’s stupid.
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Re: 20 October updates: NPC pathfinding, item sets, bugfixes

Postby Thelategamer » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:55 pm

Tom brady wrote:For the record, I had multiple 3T+ offers on that set during my possession and never sold it, so I AM losig money. But, I don’t even care about the monetary value of the items, I only cared about being the only one with them. I could have cashed out and made a nice penny off of them but kept them out of respect and not flooding the economy with more one-offs. You could give me some form of non-monetary compensation instead of just adding to the already long list of how many times I’ve been fucked over.

Also, @everyone saying this is right: imagine being in my shoes. Being proud of something and having it taken. Having the items for x amount of years doesn’t mean shit just to have them taken, I didn’t “have my time.” I shouldn’t have to expect my time to end with them just because, that’s stupid.


Still don't understand why you're more special than any other player or why you were GIVEN these items in the first place. Mike or Raps aren't going to give me a 3t+ item whether they like me or not. And you're not LOSING money if you didn't take a deal on an item, that was your decision. Your game play is not effected in any way, shape, or form if you never sold the item, the item was given to you, and you decided to not sell it afterwards.

If i had to choose between letting more players (100s that play Pkhonor) a chance to receive this one item and one player being mad that he doesn't feel special anymore, I'd choose what's right for the community.
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